Subject: Re: [Butler Talk] Butler Quits when using Mac OS 10.11.1

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 17:30:09 -0800

On Nov 15, 2017, at 3:13 PM, Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Hey, sorry for leaving this alone for a year. It's not completely trivial to update our Macs at work - we have lots of other programs that we need to keep working.

I understand.

> A few weeks ago I managed to get the okay to do a software update to the latest Mac OS and that's completely fixed this problem - my copy of Butler hasn't crashed since.

Yea, it seems it was a bug of some sort in Sierra that they fixed in High Sierra.

> (Unfortunately another app from a different vendor has now stopped working, so I'm off trying to chase them... >.<)

Good luck with the chase!

-rob.

---

From: Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 23:13:55 +0000

Hey, sorry for leaving this alone for a year. It's not completely trivial
to update our Macs at work - we have lots of other programs that we need to
keep working.

A few weeks ago I managed to get the okay to do a software update to the
latest Mac OS and that's completely fixed this problem - my copy of Butler
hasn't crashed since.

(Unfortunately another app from a different vendor has now stopped working,
so I'm off trying to chase them... >.<)

But a belated thank you all for your help.

On 23 December 2016 at 05:03, Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]> wrote:

> On Nov 15, 2016, at 3:13 PM, Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> > I'll try to press one of butler's shortcuts, and 98%* of the time it
> works as intended. 1%* of the time Butler will crash with the quit
> unexpectedly crash-dialog and need to be relaunched. 1%* of the time Butler
> will... sort-of crash and stop responding to its keyboard shortcuts... but
> won't display the crash-dialog and needs to be manually quit and reopened
> before it starts working.
>
> I wish I had news for you, but I really don't. Peter says the logs all
> point to some sort of issue with the font system crashing while trying to
> populate a pasteboard in response to a hot key. But you've tried deleting
> the pasteboard with no success, right?
>
> Also, can you install the update we just released today and see if that
> somehow magically makes the problem go away?
>
> thanks;
> -rob.
>
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---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 21:03:12 -0800

On Nov 15, 2016, at 3:13 PM, Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I'll try to press one of butler's shortcuts, and 98%* of the time it works as intended. 1%* of the time Butler will crash with the quit unexpectedly crash-dialog and need to be relaunched. 1%* of the time Butler will... sort-of crash and stop responding to its keyboard shortcuts... but won't display the crash-dialog and needs to be manually quit and reopened before it starts working.

I wish I had news for you, but I really don't. Peter says the logs all point to some sort of issue with the font system crashing while trying to populate a pasteboard in response to a hot key. But you've tried deleting the pasteboard with no success, right? 

Also, can you install the update we just released today and see if that somehow magically makes the problem go away?

thanks;
-rob.

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:15:58 -0800

On Nov 15, 2016, at 3:13 PM, Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]> wrote:

> The symptoms are still the same as I mentioned above.

OK, thanks - Peter's taking another look at the crash logs, and I'll let you know what he has to say. (This is very odd, as we don't have any other users with a constant crash issue like this ... and since 10.12 came out, we haven't had any reports of the clipboard-related issues a few users were seeing in 10.11.)

regards;
-rob.

---

From: Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:13:28 -0800 (PST)

I'll try to press one of butler's shortcuts, and 98%* of the time it works 
as intended. 1%* of the time Butler will crash with the *quit unexpectedly *
crash*-*dialog and need to be relaunched. 1%* of the time Butler will... 
sort-of crash and stop responding to its keyboard shortcuts... but won't 
display the crash*-*dialog and needs to be manually quit and reopened 
before it starts working.

*Numbers not exact. I use it quite heavily and it happens maybe 10 times a 
day?

There doesn't seem to be much pattern that I've noticed as to when it 
happens.

On Tuesday, 15 November 2016 20:48:09 UTC, Many Tricks wrote:
>
> On Nov 14, 2016, at 1:18 AM, Chris Turnbull <[email-masked] 
> <javascript:>> wrote: 
>
> > I'm pretty sure that whatever is wrong with Butler is nothing to do with 
> any of the fonts installed on my system. 
>
> Chris: 
>
> Does it crash 100% of the time, or only when you call up the clipboard? 
>
> -rob.

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:47:58 -0800

On Nov 14, 2016, at 1:18 AM, Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I'm pretty sure that whatever is wrong with Butler is nothing to do with any of the fonts installed on my system.

Chris:

-rob.

---

From: Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 01:18:18 -0800 (PST)

Hi all, I feel it's worth a quick update here.

As instructed, I've spent the last few weeks trying to disable as many 
fonts as I can and checking the effects. Right now I've deleted absolutely 
everything apart from the System Fonts (which are built in and impossible 
to delete) and the Web Safe Fonts (which would be technically possible to 
delete, but I couldn't really do my job without them).

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 09:58:13 -0700

On Aug 9, 2016, at 9:48 AM, Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure I understand? If you're reading this post, and you read my previous post... then the posts before that are right there too... just scroll up to the top of the page and read them?

I don't use the web interface, I handle the groups through email, because that's where I store and search all support inquires. So I don't see the historical thread -- the web just isn't efficient for my workflow for support, so I stick to email.

-rob.

---

From: Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 09:48:02 -0700 (PDT)

Hi again!

> OK, first, sorry for not being aware of the history -- I support so many 
people across so many apps that things do not remain in my personal RAM 
very long at all :). They get handled, or added to our list, or asked 
clarifying questions, then I'm on to the next one. Because there was no 
context in the post, I didn't understand all the details. 

I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure I understand? If you're reading this post, 
and you read my previous post... then the posts before that are right there 
too... just scroll up to the top of the page and read them?

I'm very sorry if I'm missing something stupid here!

> This crash sounds different than the font/clipboard crash, because that's 
only clipboard related. Can you please open Console, go to User Diagnostic 
Reports, find one of the Butler crash entries, select it (click once), then 
email it to me off list via the File > Mail menu item? 

OK, I will email you privately. Thanks for taking your time to look at this!

On Tuesday, 9 August 2016 14:11:32 UTC+1, Many Tricks wrote:
>
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 1:14 AM, Chris Turnbull <[email-masked] <javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
>
> > OK just to be clear I'll restate the problem: Butler seems to crash at 
> random when one of it's keystroke is pressed. The keystroke could be a 
> command to the clipboard, or a command to open/switch to an application. 
> There doesn't seem to be a pattern, other than it happens as the keystroke 
> is pressed, and it happens a few times each day. 
>
> OK, first, sorry for not being aware of the history -- I support so many 
> people across so many apps that things do not remain in my personal RAM 
> very long at all :). They get handled, or added to our list, or asked 
> clarifying questions, then I'm on to the next one. Because there was no 
> context in the post, I didn't understand all the details. 
>
> This crash sounds different than the font/clipboard crash, because that's 
> only clipboard related. Can you please open Console, go to User Diagnostic 
> Reports, find one of the Butler crash entries, select it (click once), then 
> email it to me off list via the File > Mail menu item? 
>
> thanks; 
> -rob.

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 06:11:30 -0700

On Aug 9, 2016, at 1:14 AM, Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]> wrote:

> OK just to be clear I'll restate the problem: Butler seems to crash at random when one of it's keystroke is pressed. The keystroke could be a command to the clipboard, or a command to open/switch to an application. There doesn't seem to be a pattern, other than it happens as the keystroke is pressed, and it happens a few times each day.

OK, first, sorry for not being aware of the history -- I support so many people across so many apps that things do not remain in my personal RAM very long at all :). They get handled, or added to our list, or asked clarifying questions, then I'm on to the next one. Because there was no context in the post, I didn't understand all the details. 

This crash sounds different than the font/clipboard crash, because that's only clipboard related. Can you please open Console, go to User Diagnostic Reports, find one of the Butler crash entries, select it (click once), then email it to me off list via the File > Mail menu item?

thanks;
-rob.

---

From: Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 01:14:22 -0700 (PDT)

Hey, I'm so sorry for the frustrated email earlier. It was written after 
yet another crash and was a lot more blunt than it would have been had I 
written it in a calm state of mind!

I'll do my best to answer your questions in a constructive manor this time!

> What patch? It's not abandonware by any stretch; we have a minor update 
coming out very soon, but I don't know that it will address whatever issue 
you're having.

Okay so maybe there's been some miscommunication here? A few months ago, in 
this very thread, you said:

> We're aware of the problem, and Peter is actively trying to track it down 
- once he does, we'll release a beta for those affected. (That's what's 
making this tough; it's working perfectly for some, like me. Others, 
including Peter, are seeing the crashes.) 

> I wish I could give you a timeframe, but the problem is very elusive. 
It's related to the pasteboard, but as noted, it's not crashing for 
everyone. So as soon as we find it, we'll get a fix out. 

I can understand this might not have been your top priority, and wasn't 
expecting a speedy fix, but after reading that I had assumed a fix was 
coming and all I had to do was wait some time.

> Any reason why you don't upgrade to 10.11.6, BTW?

It's probably worth you re-reading the thread above carefully. The subject 
line in the original post that you're replying to here was written in 2015! 
Version 10.11.6 hadn't been released yet ;)

On and FYI I'm fully up to date.

> If your problem is not related to the clipboard, could you please email 
me off list with the details?

The bug first started appearing in 10.11.1. In version 10.11.1 apple 
changed how part of their API works, and bugs with symptoms very similar to 
this one appeared in other third-party OSX applications as well, until the 
developers of those applications issued a patch to fix the problem.

This lead me to believe, possibly falsely, that this was the same problem, 
and that everyone using the latest version of OSX was experiencing it. I 
wasn't aware that I was in the minority, and you didn't say this either, 
which may have lead to some confusion above!

> As of now, we have a small number of users - probably five to ten - who 
are experiencing pasteboard-related crashes. Is that what yours is? The 
best we've been able to determine so far is that it's related to fonts in 
OS X, but all Butler does is call the system font handler, so we don't know 
what's going wrong. We suspect that somehow errors in font files may be 
causing the problem, but it's *very* hard to diagnose because of the poor 
feedback from OS X's error system, and the small sample size of users 
affected by whatever the problem is.

OK, this is more constructive! Is it possible for you to name a font, or 
give a list of fonts that you think may be causing the problem? I could 
always try removing them.

Or, possibly slightly more realistically, is it possible for you to do the 
opposite and come up with a list of fonts that you know are safe? (E.g. if 
you can't reproduce the bug on your machines, you could come up with a safe 
list just by looking at the fonts you have?)

Thanks for your reply btw. I know situations like this can be difficult to 
handle!

On Monday, 8 August 2016 18:45:35 UTC+1, Many Tricks wrote:
>
> On Aug 8, 2016, at 1:47 AM, Chris Turnbull <[email-masked] <javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
>
> > So we've had several months of radio-silence from Many Tricks, still no 
> word on the ETA a patch :( 
> > Is Butler abandonware now? 
> > And do you not use Butler yourself? If so, surely the constant crashing 
> must be driving you nuts! 
>
> What patch? It's not abandonware by any stretch; we have a minor update 
> coming out very soon, but I don't know that it will address whatever issue 
> you're having. And yes, both Peter and I use Butler every day. I have about 
> 30 different macros and shortcuts set up in Butler, and I bet I use them 
> anywhere from 100 to 200 times a day. I have not had a Butler crash in 
> months, or possibly even years. (A quick scan of Console finds no crash 
> logs.) Peter is similar - his Butler is working fine. As it is for the vast 
> majority of users on all versions of El Capitan. (Any reason why you don't 
> upgrade to 10.11.6, BTW?) 
>
> As of now, we have a small number of users - probably five to ten - who 
> are experiencing pasteboard-related crashes. Is that what yours is? The 
> best we've been able to determine so far is that it's related to fonts in 
> OS X, but all Butler does is call the system font handler, so we don't know 
> what's going wrong. We suspect that somehow errors in font files may be 
> causing the problem, but it's *very* hard to diagnose because of the poor 
> feedback from OS X's error system, and the small sample size of users 
> affected by whatever the problem is. 
>
> If your problem is not related to the clipboard, could you please email me 
> off list with the details? (The mailing list is not intended as a tech 
> support forum, because not everyone on the list wants to read the 
> back-and-forth required for one-to-one tech support. If/when we find an 
> answer, and if it's a general issue that would affect everyone, I will then 
> post the find/fix to the mailing list.) 
>
> regards, 
> -rob.

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 10:45:31 -0700

On Aug 8, 2016, at 1:47 AM, Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]> wrote:

> So we've had several months of radio-silence from Many Tricks, still no word on the ETA a patch :(
> And do you not use Butler yourself? If so, surely the constant crashing must be driving you nuts!

What patch? It's not abandonware by any stretch; we have a minor update coming out very soon, but I don't know that it will address whatever issue you're having. And yes, both Peter and I use Butler every day. I have about 30 different macros and shortcuts set up in Butler, and I bet I use them anywhere from 100 to 200 times a day. I have not had a Butler crash in months, or possibly even years. (A quick scan of Console finds no crash logs.) Peter is similar - his Butler is working fine. As it is for the vast majority of users on all versions of El Capitan. (Any reason why you don't upgrade to 10.11.6, BTW?)

As of now, we have a small number of users - probably five to ten - who are experiencing pasteboard-related crashes. Is that what yours is? The best we've been able to determine so far is that it's related to fonts in OS X, but all Butler does is call the system font handler, so we don't know what's going wrong. We suspect that somehow errors in font files may be causing the problem, but it's *very* hard to diagnose because of the poor feedback from OS X's error system, and the small sample size of users affected by whatever the problem is.

If your problem is not related to the clipboard, could you please email me off list with the details? (The mailing list is not intended as a tech support forum, because not everyone on the list wants to read the back-and-forth required for one-to-one tech support. If/when we find an answer, and if it's a general issue that would affect everyone, I will then post the find/fix to the mailing list.)

regards,
-rob.

---

From: Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 01:47:21 -0700 (PDT)

Hi again

Not mad here, just disappointed...

On Monday, 1 February 2016 16:40:29 UTC, Many Tricks wrote:
>
> On Jan 27, 2016, at 2:15 AM, Chris Turnbull <[email-masked] 
> <javascript:>> wrote: 
>
> > I just updated to El Capitan and am unfortunately having the same 
> problem :( 
> > If it helps I will email a crash report to your address. 
>
> Please do. 
>
> > In the meantime, I wonder if there's a quick fix you could do? E.g. 
> something like automatically relaunching if a crash happens? 
>
> Well, because we're not running, we can't relaunch because we don't know 
> we're not running, because we're not running :). It's possible to relaunch 
> apps that quit, but it requires some work on your part. Here's a hint from 
> my prior life running macosxhints.com: 
>
> <http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20071210022032707> 
>
> regards, 
> -rob.

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 08:40:27 -0800

On Jan 27, 2016, at 2:15 AM, Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I just updated to El Capitan and am unfortunately having the same problem :(

Please do.

> In the meantime, I wonder if there's a quick fix you could do? E.g. something like automatically relaunching if a crash happens?

Well, because we're not running, we can't relaunch because we don't know we're not running, because we're not running :). It's possible to relaunch apps that quit, but it requires some work on your part. Here's a hint from my prior life running macosxhints.com:

regards,
-rob.

---

From: Chris Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 02:15:13 -0800 (PST)

Hi there, long time user of Butler here. (And I'm a long time user for a 
reason, I find it really useful ^_^;;)

On Tuesday, 26 January 2016 13:53:07 UTC, Many Tricks wrote:
>
> On Jan 26, 2016, at 3:09 AM, ... wrote: 
>
> > I don't know if it helps, but if I show the clipboard window and then 
> delete a pasteboard with the contextual menu, Butler crashes every time. 
>
> And herein lies our challenge: I can do that on both my 10.11.3 Macs 
> without Butler crashing at all. Can you email us a crash report or two, 
> please? Don't post to the list, as they're huge, but email to me directly. 
> (Find them in Console > User Diagnostic Reports. 
>
> thanks; 
> -rob.

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 05:53:06 -0800

On Jan 26, 2016, at 3:09 AM, [email-masked] wrote:

> I don't know if it helps, but if I show the clipboard window and then delete a pasteboard with the contextual menu, Butler crashes every time.

And herein lies our challenge: I can do that on both my 10.11.3 Macs without Butler crashing at all. Can you email us a crash report or two, please? Don't post to the list, as they're huge, but email to me directly. (Find them in Console > User Diagnostic Reports.

thanks;
-rob.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 03:09:11 -0800 (PST)

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 10:09:35 PM UTC, Many Tricks wrote:
>
> On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:35 AM, My nickname <[email-masked] 
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>
> I posted previously that I was having the same problem. *Just a repost to 
> say that Butler is not quitting by itself anymore*. Fingers crossed. 
> AFAIK I didn't change anything that would have done this. Still on 10.11.1.
>
>
> We are still tracking a spurious crash that's affecting some people some 
> of the time - so it may quit again. We'll update when we have something for 
> people to test (this is a ridiculously difficult issue to resolve, as we 
> can't reproduce it at will.)
>
> regards;
> -rob.
>

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:09:33 -0800

On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:35 AM, My nickname <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I posted previously that I was having the same problem. Just a repost to say that Butler is not quitting by itself anymore. Fingers crossed. AFAIK I didn't change anything that would have done this. Still on 10.11.1.

We are still tracking a spurious crash that's affecting some people some of the time - so it may quit again. We'll update when we have something for people to test (this is a ridiculously difficult issue to resolve, as we can't reproduce it at will.)

regards;
-rob.

---

From: My nickname <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 09:35:47 -0800 (PST)

I posted previously that I was having the same problem. *Just a repost to 
say that Butler is not quitting by itself anymore*. Fingers crossed. AFAIK 
I didn't change anything that would have done this. Still on 10.11.1.

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:04:48 -0800

On Oct 30, 2015, at 10:45 AM, Douglas Howey <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I know there must be other ways to crash Butler because 
> 1) Butler does no load during login and 
> 2) when I do not access the Butler Menu, it eventually quits while doing normal computer work.

I just replied to someone else on the list with the details, but this is known and we're trying to track it down. It is still all pasteboard related, even if it doesn't seem like it. We just haven't figured out exactly what changed from 10.10 to 10.11 to be causing these issues.

regards,
-rob.

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:03:18 -0800

On Nov 2, 2015, at 10:58 AM, My nickname <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I believe I'm seeing the same thing. I hadn't tracked it down as carefully as Douglas did, but thought Butler had been working with El Capitan, but then noticed it kept quitting. Makes sense now that it is the .1 update that did Butler in.
> 
> I just started transitioning my shortcuts to Keyboard Maestro and turned on Spotlight search. Will miss Butler and hate to go through pain of figuring out how to do things in new applications and with the OS. But time marches on and with only minor updates over what it is four years. Must have been well written to keep going this well after so many years. 

We're aware of the problem, and Peter is actively trying to track it down - once he does, we'll release a beta for those affected. (That's what's making this tough; it's working perfectly for some, like me. Others, including Peter, are seeing the crashes.)

I wish I could give you a timeframe, but the problem is very elusive. It's related to the pasteboard, but as noted, it's not crashing for everyone. So as soon as we find it, we'll get a fix out.

regards,
-rob.

---

From: My nickname <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:58:21 -0800 (PST)

I believe I'm seeing the same thing. I hadn't tracked it down as carefully 
as Douglas did, but thought Butler had been working with El Capitan, but 
then noticed it kept quitting. Makes sense now that it is the .1 update 
that did Butler in.

I just started transitioning my shortcuts to Keyboard Maestro and turned on 
Spotlight search. Will miss Butler and hate to go through pain of figuring 
out how to do things in new applications and with the OS. But time marches 
on and with only minor updates over what it is four years. Must have been 
well written to keep going this well after so many years. 

On Monday, November 2, 2015 at 9:32:42 AM UTC-8, Douglas Howey wrote:
>
> Butler 4.1.19
> Quits after a few minutes of being on and won't load on boot nor login.
>
> This started happening when I updated to Mac OS 10.11.1
> Thank you for a great app I use daily, all day, for years and years and 
> years.
> I look forward to the fix that allows me to use this life-efficient app 
> again.
>
> I know one way to cause Butler to crash: 
> I find the Butler Menu and access Pasteboard and move to a custom 
> pasteboard folder.
>
> Thank you,
> Douglas

---

From: Douglas Howey <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:45:10 -0700 (PDT)

Butler 4.1.19

I know there must be other ways to crash Butler because 
1) Butler does no load during login and 
2) when I do not access the Butler Menu, it eventually quits while doing 
normal computer work.

Thank you,
Douglas