Subject: Re: [Butler Talk] Butler broken with Yosemite 10.10.2?

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:28:47 -0700

On Mar 18, 2015, at 5:25 PM, Thomas Rohde <[email-masked]> wrote:

> it. And I’m afraid that it might lose features with every OS update b/c they may be broken. I used Butler almost from the first minute, and Peter may

Peter and I don't want Butler to die, and we won't let it die. The docklet feature (based on feedback) wasn't very widely used, as I've only heard a couple of comments about it. We don't like any bits to break, of course, but have to balance the time/complexity to fix against the other things we need to get done.

> stick w/ Butler, and again I can’t really explain why. Maybe Im getting old and sentimental and have gotten emotionally (over?)attached to Butler. I remember how hard it was for me to leave Eudora behind.

I remember that feeling, too.

> What can users do to help? I assume purchasing a third or fourth license won’t help you, otherwise I’d do so.

No, please don't do that!

> I mean, it’s not easy to make propaganda for a piece of software that has some broken parts and has not seen a major update in so many years … and with others marketing their stuff much more aggressively (namely Alfred with it’s apparent rip-off icon and name; I still feel some anger about that).

At this time, honestly, please don't promote Butler unless you can do so without any excuses on your part. I still find what it can do to be pretty amazing, but it's got a very complicated UI, a near-vertical learning curve, and as you've noted, at least one or two bits that don't work (bookmark sync would be another). 

We're not publicizing it much ourselves, either, beyond keeping the web page online.

> If I may suggest something: remove any hint about Butler 5 (which has been announced when?

Good idea, removed the pre-sale bit.

> Say hi to Peter and tell him that I still remember him ;-)

He remembers you as well!

regards,
-rob.

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From: Thomas Rohde <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 01:25:21 +0100

Thanks for your honest answer, Rob,

On 2015-03-18 at 14:29, Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]> wrote:

> [..] So I apologize for having offended, but I will always start with the most basic possible solution, and what you described sounded like a conflict with another app.

Oh no, I wasn’t offended, the most important reason for my posting the solution was to share it with other Butler users who may have run into that problem.

> [..] it's far from abandonware. But fixing the docklet would require a complete rewrite of a good chunk of Butler's code; it's not a simple fix. As such, it's something that will be rolled into a major update, not a minor fix. 
> 
> When is that major update coming? I honestly wish I could answer that. But for as much as we all love Butler, we are in the minority: it's a niche product, and we have a number of other apps that require attention (and are more widely used), and just two of us to get all the work done (and just one to program).
> 
> So Butler will be updated, but it needs to fit in with the apps that actually help keep us in business.

OK, sad to hear that, but understandable.

> Hire someone, I hear you saying. We would love to do that, but the economics don't work. We are what we are, and what we are is a two-person Mac software company. I'd love to be even a four-person Mac software company, but the math just doesn't work at present.

No, you are NOT hearing me saying that ;-) I have made virtual acquaintance of Peter over a decade ago, and I know you’re a two-person company, an “indie” company for that. Which is the reason why I am a bit worried about Butler which is among the best utilities I’ve ever used. I WANT to recommend it. And I’m afraid that it might lose features with every OS update b/c they may be broken. I used Butler almost from the first minute, and Peter may remember that I promoted it a LOT. I even paid for it two or three times, just because I love it and wanted to support Peter‘s work (and it’s not as if I were a wealthy man).

> If you're unhappy with Butler's features, performance, or progress, I would recommend you check out Alfred or LaunchBar; both have some great features that Butler lacks, and can probably do 90% of the stuff that Butler does. Both are much more the "bread and butter" of their developers, so they're more actively developed.

<sigh> I have a license for LaunchBar (had it even before I had Butler, IIRC), and I am keeping it updated, but … well, dunno how to say it, it doesn’t satisfy me. Maybe I ought to dive more into it. But I’d prefer to stick w/ Butler, and again I can’t really explain why. Maybe Im getting old and sentimental and have gotten emotionally (over?)attached to Butler. I remember how hard it was for me to leave Eudora behind.

> Yes, I'm recommending the competition

thanks, Rob, respect for that

> -- because I'm trying to provide honest answers for you. Butler will be updated, and it's not being abandoned.

Okay.

> But I cannot tell you when that update might happen, or what bits might break in future OS updates.

<nightmare>

> All I know is that Peter and I both rely -- heavily -- on Butler, so we're not going to let it die, despite the business case that argues for doing just that.

What can users do to help? I assume purchasing a third or fourth license won’t help you, otherwise I’d do so. I mean, it’s not easy to make propaganda for a piece of software that has some broken parts and has not seen a major update in so many years … and with others marketing their stuff much more aggressively (namely Alfred with it’s apparent rip-off icon and name; I still feel some anger about that).

If I may suggest something: remove any hint about Butler 5 (which has been announced when? Five years ago?) and especially that “Butler 5 pre-sale” thing because it leads people to believe that an upgrade is imminent. I for one have waited for a long time, and with every OS X update my hope has sunk. I thought, “wow, Peter is such a genius, I can’t wait for the new stuff he will have thought of implementing in Butler”.

You may have perceived me as a PITA with my continuing questions about a Butler upgrade, and I hope I didn't give Peter sleepless nights, but … I think it was a mistake to ever announce an upgrade when it wasn’t sure when or if ever it would come. But what has happened cannot be made undone … so … looking forward.

Anyway, I dearly hope you folks make some good money also with your other softwares (most of which I also purchased, often just for the sympathy for ManyTricks), and I will keep watching you.

Greetings, Tom in Germany

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From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 06:29:48 -0700

On Mar 18, 2015, at 4:28 AM, Thomas Rohde <[email-masked]> wrote:

> On 2015-01-30 at 00:01, Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
>>> - I have set Butler to start at login; it does NOT react to the keyboard shortcut I have set to show the “Enter Abbreviations” window until I have used another shortcut to open Butler’s preferences.
>> 
>> I launch Butler at startup and it seems to be working fine -- I suspect a conflict with another utility that utilizes the keyboard. You might try removing and re-adding Butler to the startup items to see if that helps. (It really shouldn't, but I know it helped someone else.)
> 
> Of course I checked for conflicts before writing to the list, it was NOT a shortcut conflict.

Thomas:

I can't assume anything about users who write to the list, so I always start at the most basic level. If I assume advanced users, then I risk providing answers that would require a ton of further explanation. So I apologize for having offended, but I will always start with the most basic possible solution, and what you described sounded like a conflict with another app.

> Meanwhile I have found the solution: Preferences –> Users & Groups –> Login Items —> uncheck “Hide” (no idea why it was checked in the first place)

That will indeed cause problems, as it seems to for many of our apps (and others that I have run into). We documented it in a blog post long ago, but I'd forgotten about it, so sorry for not bringing it up.

> Well, this definitely is a sign of … erosion, and I dearly hope that ManyTricks will do something so that Butler won’t be totally in ruins when the next OS version comes. But I guess as long as only _parts_ of Butler don’t work it isn’t “abandonware” yet ;-)

Given Peter and I use Butler every day, it's far from abandonware. But fixing the docklet would require a complete rewrite of a good chunk of Butler's code; it's not a simple fix. As such, it's something that will be rolled into a major update, not a minor fix. 

Yes, I'm recommending the competition -- because I'm trying to provide honest answers for you. Butler will be updated, and it's not being abandoned. But I cannot tell you when that update might happen, or what bits might break in future OS updates. All I know is that Peter and I both rely -- heavily -- on Butler, so we're not going to let it die, despite the business case that argues for doing just that.

regards;
-rob.

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From: Thomas Rohde <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:28:18 +0100

> [..]
> 
> The docklet is pretty much dead; Apple's changed enough stuff that what Peter wrote so many years ago no longer works reliably.

Greetings, Tom

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From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 15:01:52 -0800

> - The docklet is set to »accordion mode«, and after first use it won’t shrink back, so it has become useless for me (but this was already with 10.10.1, IIRC)

regards,
-rob.

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From: Thomas Rohde <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 23:56:36 +0100

On 2015-01-29 at 23:15, David Etherington <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Butler 4.1.18 hangs (gives me the spinning beach ball) when I run it under 10.10.2.
> 
> Is this a known problem?  Is there a fix?

Butler _does_ run here on a clean installation of 10.10 and also after the update to 10.10.2, but I notice two things:

Greetings, Tom

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From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 14:51:04 -0800

> Is this a known problem?  Is there a fix?

It's not a known issue; I'm running 10.10.2 here with 4.1.18 without any issues -- and if we had a general problem, I'm sure I would've heard about it by now :).

So it's something particular to your setup, and the group email list isn't the best place to do troubleshooting. (I'll post back if we find a general cause/fix that would benefit others, of course.)

We can do further support via email or our ticket system; the choice is yours.

Open a ticket: <http://manytricks.com/support/index.php?act=tickets&code=open&step=2&department=2&priority=4>

Email: <http://manytricks.com/mail/?to=feature_butler&subject=Butler%20support%20request>

Thanks;
-rob.

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From: David Etherington <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 14:15:25 -0800 (PST)

Butler 4.1.18 hangs (gives me the spinning beach ball) when I run it under 
10.10.2.