Subject: Re: [Butler Talk] Butler 5 still in the works?

From: Thomas Rohde <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 03:25:18 +0100

Hey everybody,

I think I was one of Butlers first users, and I have been one of those who often asked for news about further development of Butler.

Maybe (but hopefully not) annoying for you two @ ManyTricks. But the reason I bugged you was always because I appreciate Peter’s software ideas and design — clean, stable, ingenious — and I can’t get enough of that.

For clipboard management, I will admit that I have switched to “Copy’em Paste” a few months ago, as it allows me to search, modify clipboard entries (many options, also for auto-removal of whitespace, etc.), favorize (i.e. keep), categorize (in lists), save copied images as files, etc., and sync clipboards across my Macs (and meanwhile even iOS, in Beta).
But before I switched I have used Butler for clipboard mgmt ever since it first appeared, and a perceived thousand times a day.

And I still use Butler perhaps a hundred times per day, mostly app launching w/ abbreviations (all typed blindly in fractions of a second), and diverse customized Web searches. And I know I’m only using a small part of what Butler offers.

> On 2019-11-13, at 20:48, Bill Earl <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Butler is such a critical tool for me that I will happily pay for version 5 when it comes out, despite having been promised a free upgrade.

Ditto.
AFAIR I have paid at least twice for Butler, simply because I was (and still am) so happy for the things Butler makes me do so much faster—I don't even think about it, Butler is just an extension of my fingertips—and because, to me personally, it is worth more than what you folks charge for it.
I know that you’re just two kids in a backyard shed (OK, “kids” and “backyard shed” was kidding); I have met Peter virtually in another place on the ’net, almost twenty years ago, and I appreciate his personality and view of the world; and you, Rob, will always be in my Mac hall of fame for macosxhints.com, which at a time I used to read daily; I WANT you folks to stay in business, I WANT you to maintain your nice softwares (I use some of your other stuff also), and to hopefully create more.

Anyway … I’m 62 now, I don't know whether I’ll see Butler 5, but I hope so. Until then I’ll be happy to have this power under my fingertips.

Cordially,
Tom in Germany

---

From: Bill Earl <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 11:48:00 -0800 (PST)

Butler is such a critical tool for me that I will happily pay for version 5 
when it comes out, despite having been promised a free upgrade.

Perhaps Butler 5 could have a "simple" setup option for people who don't 
consider themselves "power users". I never really thought of Butler as a 
"power user" tool, although it has that capability.

Personally, I think Peter and Rob should be praised, not vilified, for 
their amazing products and support.

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 07:18:07 -0800

On Nov 11, 2019, at 3:26 AM, Murray Smith <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I hope you guys are ashamed and embarrassed Rob. The chap who wrote that post back in 2013 was bang on; you guys have proved his post 100% correct. You should reimburse everyone who donated to version 4 under the pretence that it would give them versions 5.

It was not a donation, it was a purchase of a license for Butler 4 that includes a free Butler 5. Butler has been regular shareware (license required for purchase to use, even if it's not crippleware) since 2010. So what we were saying was "Buy Butler 4, you'll get Butler 5 for free when it comes out." That is still true; here's the language in our email when someone purchases Butler:

"Thank you for supporting Butler and its future development. Enclosed is your license, made out to..." and "You will be able to upgrade to Butler 5 for free when it ships." That's what we're promising, and it's still true.

> Also, I dare you to reply to this and say that version 5 is coming. What a joke!

Butler 5 may well be coming—we took a huge step in that direction by doing hundreds of hours of work to convert Butler to 64-bit code. That was not a simple project, and we did it for free for everyone. Peter and I still use Butler, and know how we want Butler 5 to work and what features we want to add.

But the reality is that very few people purchase Butler (it is, by far, our least-popular app), because it's a "power user" tool, and Apple is doing their best to get rid of that category of user—and that makes it really hard to find the time necessary to invest in Butler 5 when it will do very little to help keep us in business going forward. And as much as we both love Butler, we love Many Tricks more, and have to make time management decisions around keeping the company going.

If you're disappointed in any of this, please email me directly and I'll PayPal you $25 for a Butler refund. Once that's done, you'll be expected to delete Butler as you'll no longer have a valid license. This offer is good for anyone else who feels we ripped them off by offering a free copy of Butler 5 when they purchased Butler 4.

regards;
-rob.

---

From: Murray Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 03:26:16 -0800 (PST)

I hope you guys are ashamed and embarrassed Rob. The chap who wrote that 
post back in 2013 was bang on; you guys have proved his post 100% correct. 
You should reimburse everyone who donated to version 4 under the pretence 
that it would give them versions 5.

Also, I dare you to reply to this and say that version 5 is coming. What a 
joke!

On Wednesday, 31 July 2013 08:05:53 UTC+10, Many Tricks wrote:
>
> On Jul 30, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Frans <[email-masked] <javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
>
> > Boy, what a nerve. You are blaming us for having expectations? You 
> created 
> > them, not us. 
>
> We did? We said "get a free Butler 5 when you buy Butler 4." That is still 
> true. 
>
> > But you won't tell us if there will ever be a version 5. There's a 
> simple 
>
> There will be a version 5. What I won't do is set an expectation for a 
> release date that we may or may not hit. 
>
> > swindle. My best guess it's two years since I payed you to make sure you 
> > feel committed to Butler 5 (yes, that's why I payed you). You're letting 
>
> Yes, it's about two years. 
>
> > "Butler for Mac is an abandoned project. We are just very mediocre 
> software 
> > developers that couldn't pull it off. We know there is a lot of 
> potential 
>
> Because it's not abandoned, and it still works perfectly well. Peter and I 
> rely on it daily, and have no intention of letting it die. There will be a 
> Butler 5, period. 
>
> > Sorry we screwed you, thanks for you money, and you better look 
> elsewhere 
> > for your software need. Give Alfred or Quick Silver a try. They're 
> almost 
>
> If you want a refund, please let me know, and I will gladly provide it. 
>
> > It's just painful to see, such great software being abandoned. But at 
> least 
> > you would be honest about it, instead of this flirting with no way for 
> your 
> > customers to get lucky. 
>
> Again, it's not abandoned, and there will be a Butler 5. But I refuse to 
> commit to a date that we may or may not hit, and the result ing negative 
> feedback that that would entail. Again, though, if you're tired of waiting 
> and Butler 4 isn't useful to you, please just ask for a refund, and we'll 
> provide one. 
>
> regards, 
> -rob.

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 05:26:18 -0800

On Jan 7, 2015, at 5:15 AM, Thomas Rohde <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I just visited http://manytricks.com/butler/ again after some time, and I still see this there:
> 
>> Butler 5 pre-sale: Support Butler by purchasing Butler 4 now, and you'll receive a free copy of Butler 5 when it ships!

That's still there because it's still true.

> Is there, meanwhile, any news, “shareable or otherwise”, about Butler 5?

No updates to be shared; with a two-person company, our priorities are often shuffled about (sometimes as a result of Apple's activities, sometimes as a result of customer demand, etc.).

We still both use and rely on Butler, and know it's very important to its users. We still plan on Butler 5, but we still can't announce a timeframe because as of now we don't have one.

regards;
-rob.

---

From: Thomas Rohde <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 14:15:27 +0100

Hello everybody, Peter, Rob,

first, let me wish you all a healthy and happy new year!

Two-and-a-half years ago, on 2012-06-20 at 01:38, Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]> wrote:

> On Jun 19, 2012, at 3:00 PM, Thomas Rohde wrote:
> 
>> Is there any news about development of Butler 5 you are willing to share with us?
> 
> There's no news at all, shareable or otherwise, about Butler 5. It's a product on our timeline, Butler is very important to both Peter and I [..], and we know people want Butler 5.

Greetings, Tom

-- 
Thomas Rohde
Wiesenkamp 12
29646 Bispingen
GERMANY

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 10:25:56 -0700 (PDT)

I agree with GrumpyDave. Butler 4 does everything I want and more. Although 
I too am impatient for Butler 5, it's more a matter of curiosity as to what 
Butler 5 could possibly add to Butler 4.

---

From: David A. <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 18:04:05 -0700

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 15:05:53 -0700, Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
wrote:

>On Jul 30, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Frans <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>> "Butler for Mac is an abandoned project. We are just very mediocre software 
>> developers that couldn't pull it off. We know there is a lot of potential 
>
>Because it's not abandoned, and it still works perfectly well. Peter and I rely on it daily

As do I.  Every day.  All day.  Butler does all the things I want it
to do and has for quite a number of years now.  I've receied
tremendous value than the money I spent (back when it was a donation!)
even if version 5 never materializes and I intend to keep using it for
many more years.

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 15:05:53 -0700

On Jul 30, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Frans <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Boy, what a nerve. You are blaming us for having expectations? You created 
> them, not us.

We did? We said "get a free Butler 5 when you buy Butler 4." That is still true.

> But you won't tell us if there will ever be a version 5. There's a simple 

There will be a version 5. What I won't do is set an expectation for a release date that we may or may not hit.

> developers that couldn't pull it off. We know there is a lot of potential 

Because it's not abandoned, and it still works perfectly well. Peter and I rely on it daily, and have no intention of letting it die. There will be a Butler 5, period.

> Sorry we screwed you, thanks for you money, and you better look elsewhere 
> for your software need. Give Alfred or Quick Silver a try. They're almost 

> It's just painful to see, such great software being abandoned. But at least 
> you would be honest about it, instead of this flirting with no way for your 
> customers to get lucky.

Again, it's not abandoned, and there will be a Butler 5. But I refuse to commit to a date that we may or may not hit, and the result ing negative feedback that that would entail. Again, though, if you're tired of waiting and Butler 4 isn't useful to you, please just ask for a refund, and we'll provide one.

regards,
-rob.

---

From: Frans <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 14:34:33 -0700 (PDT)

And what a lousy list of excuses. It's like citing the four disasters of 
Sovjet Union collective farming, but reformulated for software.

You asked us to pay for Butler 4 so we can get a free upgrade to Butler 5. 
But you won't tell us if there will ever be a version 5. There's a simple 
expression for that in English: you're screwing your customers. It's 
swindle. My best guess it's two years since I payed you to make sure you 
feel committed to Butler 5 (yes, that's why I payed you). You're letting 
your customers down in a way I have never seen (actually yes, I did, The 
Hit List is also a great example, but at least he didn't ask to pay for a 
new version under development).

So why don't you just say it out loud, repeat after me:
"Butler for Mac is an abandoned project. We are just very mediocre software 
developers that couldn't pull it off. We know there is a lot of potential 
still in Butler, but that was just luck. When things got really complicated 
we were lost. We should never have started this in the first place because 
(multiple choice):
a, we don't like coding all that much 
b. we/our family/dog got sick so we lost motivation
c. we developed a serious RSI and became allergic to coding
and we certainly don't like customers.
Sorry we screwed you, thanks for you money, and you better look elsewhere 
for your software need. Give Alfred or Quick Silver a try. They're almost 
as good as Butler, but more important, they have grit, something we lack 
completely."

PS: The four disasters of Sovjet Union farming are spring, summer, autumn 
and winter, of course

On Wednesday, 20 June 2012 01:38:13 UTC+2, Many Tricks wrote:
> There's no news at all, shareable or otherwise, about Butler 5. It's a 
> product on our timeline, Butler is very important to both Peter and I (we 
> both use it many dozens of times a day), and we know people want Butler 5. 
>
> With all that said, we're a two-person company with a full suite of 
> products, and we're subject, at times, to forces beyond our control (see 
> "App Store," "sandboxing required," "migration plans," etc.) So we don't 
> commit to dates on anything any more, as I can't guarantee we'll get 
> anywhere close to a date I arbitrarily draw out of a hat. Basically, I 
> can't give you a ship date, nor even a hint as to a ship date, because we 
> don't have one. 
>
> > QuickSilver apparently is being developed further again, LaunchBar, 
> Albert (yes, I know it hurts) 
>
> It doesn't hurt, because we really don't care what others are doing in the 
> space. Butler is what Butler is, and you either like it or you don't -- and 
> Butler 5, when it comes into existence, probably won't do much to change 
> those feelings. So we have our list of things we'd like to see in Butler 5 
> (many suggested by users), and whether those things are things in those 
> other apps, we really don't know or care. 
>
> > … and I find I want more than I can currently get from Butler. 
>
> If other apps meet your needs, then I encourage you to switch: I'm not 
> going to lie and say 'stick with us, Butler 5 is right around the corner!,' 
> because it's not. (If you have ideas that you haven't shared on what you'd 
> like to see, feel free to send them to this list, or directly to me.) So if 
> other apps do what you want better than Butler does them, then you should 
> probably use one of those other apps. 
>
> > BTW you might want to know that when I clicked the mail address link on 
> the Butler-Talk Google Groups page the mail address it inserted in 
> Mail.app’s To: field was [email-masked] <javascript:>. 
>
> Odd; fixed, and thanks. 
>
> regards, 
> -rob.

---

From: Rob Griffiths <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 16:38:13 -0700

> Is there any news about development of Butler 5 you are willing to share with us?

There's no news at all, shareable or otherwise, about Butler 5. It's a product on our timeline, Butler is very important to both Peter and I (we both use it many dozens of times a day), and we know people want Butler 5.

With all that said, we're a two-person company with a full suite of products, and we're subject, at times, to forces beyond our control (see "App Store," "sandboxing required," "migration plans," etc.) So we don't commit to dates on anything any more, as I can't guarantee we'll get anywhere close to a date I arbitrarily draw out of a hat. Basically, I can't give you a ship date, nor even a hint as to a ship date, because we don't have one.

> QuickSilver apparently is being developed further again, LaunchBar, Albert (yes, I know it hurts)

It doesn't hurt, because we really don't care what others are doing in the space. Butler is what Butler is, and you either like it or you don't -- and Butler 5, when it comes into existence, probably won't do much to change those feelings. So we have our list of things we'd like to see in Butler 5 (many suggested by users), and whether those things are things in those other apps, we really don't know or care.

> … and I find I want more than I can currently get from Butler.

If other apps meet your needs, then I encourage you to switch: I'm not going to lie and say 'stick with us, Butler 5 is right around the corner!,' because it's not. (If you have ideas that you haven't shared on what you'd like to see, feel free to send them to this list, or directly to me.) So if other apps do what you want better than Butler does them, then you should probably use one of those other apps.

> BTW you might want to know that when I clicked the mail address link on the Butler-Talk Google Groups page the mail address it inserted in Mail.app’s To: field was [email-masked].

Odd; fixed, and thanks.

regards,
-rob.

---

From: Thomas Rohde <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 00:00:58 +0200

Hello Peter, Rob,

it’s been a loooong time since I’ve heard anything about Butler development … I’ve been a happy user for all these years now, I think a decade.

Is there any news about development of Butler 5 you are willing to share with us? QuickSilver apparently is being developed further again, LaunchBar, Albert (yes, I know it hurts) … and I find I want more than I can currently get from Butler.

But before I move on I thought it would be nice to ask …

Greetings, and thanks in advance for any reply.

Tom
-- 
Thomas Rohde
Wiesenkamp 12
29646 Bispingen
----------------
05194-6741
[email-masked]

---

From: Thomas Rohde <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 00:03:12 +0200

I believe you might want to correct this. If you are still reading here, that is.

Greetings,

Tom